Hey, my Gorgeous Lucky Bs. Today, I’ve got a special guest with me because so many women in the Lucky B Community ask me about how to clear debt and also what’s next in the world of money. A lot of you, like me, we don’t want to get money for money’s sake. We want to create more richness and wealth in our lives. Not just for our generation, but for others as well.
I have a very special guest, Ann Wilson, who is at TheWealthChef.com. She is going to talk to us today about clearing debt, about this new wave of money consciousness that’s coming – she calls it Money 3.0. I know you’re going to get lots of juicy tips out of it as well.
Listen below or download here.
Lucky Bitch Video Transcript – Interview with Ann Wilson
Denise: Ann, thank you so much for joining me.
Ann: Darling Denise and all the Lucky Bees, it is such a privilege to be here. I love to speak about money. I’m so thrilled you’ve mentioned the “big D” word, debt. I think when we can bring consciousness, when we can bring light, when we can bring another way of approaching some of these different aspects of money, which debt is a big blocker, a shame-trigger for so many. Listen, we can liberate so many aspects of ourselves and allow money to support us rather than enslave us.
Denise: That word, “enslave,” is so important. You cannot have financial empowerment, financial freedom when you are shackled to debt. I know I got into a ton of debt in my early 20s. I never opened my credit card statements; it felt really paralyzing.
How did you get into this world? Do you have a debt story of your own?
Ann: I do. I managed to dive deep into a magnificent deep debt hole. Denise, you mentioned that Money 3.0 was coming but I grew up and was in my teens in the 80s, went to university in the 90s. This was the height of, in a way, Money 2.0. This was, I think, the whole drive up to have, to be more, the yuppies, the externalization of greed.
Greed is good and go for it. I, firstly, was only taught to work hard for money. While my underlying driver was wanting security, certainly to be able to have advantages and experience life. The only recipe I knew was, okay, “Go and work hard.”
I looked around and men seemed to have the thing sorted because they seem to be the ones that controlled money and had it. I went, “Okay, what should I do?” I said, “I’ll be an engineer.” That’s what I did. I studied to be a civil engineer.
I got the degree and I thought, “Great. This is fantastic. I’ve got this money shit sorted.” All that happened was that I was bombarded with all the things I could have now and pay later.
There was this underlying belief that I had that almost I needed to; it was just what you did. You got the credit card, you got the store cards, you got the overdraft almost as a status symbol. But nowhere had I been taught about how to even understand compounding.
The bottom line driver for me was trying to fit in and thinking I had to have those things.
Very quickly – and literally, I’m talking within an 18 month period of starting to earn. I already had student loans – my father had died and I had to look after all that side. The joy and the hope and all the dreams that I had just felt like they were going away. I thought, “Maybe this is what they meant when they said, ‘when you’re grown up.’” Maybe this is what it meant, that I had to put those dreams in a bottom drawer because now I was working for the banks, for the card company and for all of these things.
The very anxiety and fear and worry that I had hoped to not feel as a result of not working hard and earning money was absolutely there because I literally was in a position where I couldn’t have lasted more than a couple of weeks.
This was enough for me because there’s a big shame around debt.
I can remember feeling really ashamed that somehow I had gotten myself in this situation. I was supposedly bright, I was supposedly working hard and I was stealing toilet paper from my workplace to get through that last bit of the month.
I got to a point where everything was burned out.
It was like, “Oh, my God. Is this me?” I externally had to sort of keep up this appearance.
It was around 1994 and South Africa was going through its own liberation and Mandela. There was a big wave of new hope, dream, possibility. I really looked and I saw people and I was participating in a real fight for justice and freedom. There was this whole other area of my life where I was going, “Hang on. I don’t have this freedom.” It was this combination of a movement of choice, of privilege to have this thing called life. My ignorance had gotten me into this side. I thought beating myself up, I tried that for a while and it hadn’t really done much.
The big thing that helped me shift was by really connecting and then claiming back my life, claiming back my freedom, claiming back my worthiness.
Going, “Ah, okay. Can I make this fun? Can I make this a game?” and actually choosing to climb out of my debt hole.
Instead of something being about deprivation or beating myself up, I really focused on the freedom, the ultimate freedom it was going to give me by breaking from that.
The freedom of choice, the freedom of where I could choose to put my energy. That changing of focus from thinking, “I had to get out of debt because debt is bad,” to, rather, I was giving myself a gift. It really helped me to then go, “I’ve got to stop the bleeding for a while. ”
There’s a lovely saying:
You don’t get out of a debt hole by digging any further. You’ve got to put down the shovel.
I had to go cold turkey off the debt habit. Now I’ve worked with thousands of people and we work through this amazing debt blitzing recipe, which is having a structured approach.
There isn’t a weaning off. If you’re going to give up smoking – I did that, too – they’ve actually shown and proved that cutting down is actually far more addictive because you actually give more energy to the deprivation and try to go, “I’ll last a little bit longer,” than just going, “No. It’s no longer in my life.”
I think there’s a powerful place of where we claim ourselves back.
In that no, we might not know how, but somehow in the go we’re telling our unconscious and we’re telling the deep part of ourselves that we trust ourselves. We know that we can do this shit.
There’s so much I want to cover. Just in this process it was putting down that shovel and then keeping focused on this liberation.
Then, third, was going, “How do I make it fun? How do I make it a game?”
Different people can choose different sides, but my freedom, my liberation, just what I realized that I could do, that I could reclaim back my dreams – that fortunately hadn’t been gone so long and there was still that spark of them – helped me go, “I’m prepared to do things for a short period of time to really add rocket fuel.” With debt, there’s a lot of energetic heaviness around it.
Denise: Oh, yeah. It feels like it’s never going to go. Ever.
Ann: That’s the energetic heaviness. It needs some rocket fuel because a little bit here and a little bit there actually adds to that heaviness. It almost adds to the belief that we can’t break out.
By having a focused plan and going with some real rocket fuel and going, “What am I prepared to do to radically shift this?”
That’s when it can start bringing so many other layers of a lot of what you teach and what I’ve taught elsewhere. How do you declutter? Sell stuff! Get rid of stuff.
I got rid of a vehicle. I rented out a home. I was newly married and I went and I lived with my one sister in the back room of her co-share and rented there for a year. It was really quite liberating because at the same time, I was able to reclaim quite a lot of what defines me. So much of that earlier journey of the debt hole was believing I had to have those other things.
One of the things is a lot of clients that I work with and a lot of women I see also tend to get into debt and there’s another wave of debt. Like you and I went into our debt in our 20s. It’s just offered there. It’s a bit like… it is a drug. It’s a completely legalized modern drug that’s pushed by society and actually it is an enslaver. If you’re in that, you are compliant. You can’t leave that job. You can’t leave that marriage, that relationship due to those things. This is why we’re both so passionate about helping people out of it.
I see another wave of wanting to transition.
Maybe they wanted to become a coach or an author and now there’s a wave that happens in a lot of investing in themselves – the personal development side. I’ve got huge compassion for this wave because here is a slightly different energy, but there’s sometimes a similar type of thing that can come in.
When initially it can be really investing in ourselves and that initial excitement, but sometimes we can end up going and buying and spending money on stuff coming from a place of “I’m not enough-ness.”
Denise: Totally. Or desperation or FOMO or NLP. Sometimes you can get sucked into a really good pitch. I know, for myself, I am so susceptible to NLP techniques. It makes you feel like a loser if you don’t invest. It’s designed to. Absolutely.
It’s so hard to know, though. I’ve got a couple of questions about the earlier stuff that you said. I did the same thing. I got a laptop and a higher purchase when I was in my first year out of home because I wanted it. It seemed really grownup having a loan. Within a couple of years, I had a couple of credit cards, I had an overdraft, I had a personal loan. I was absolutely maxed out.
But then, when you said that second wave – because I dealt with most of that consumer debt. Some of it was weddings, some of it was travel and all that stuff in your 20s.
Then it was like, “I have to invest in myself if I want to be a coach, if I want to be successful.” I took out a loan of about 6,000 pounds, which is about $7,000 to do one of my first masterminds. I felt like I had to invest in myself. It was really worth it, but then the next year I did an $11,000 one and then then the year after I did an $18,000 one. I felt like I had to keep on investing and yet my hubby is like, “When are you going to make this money? You’re spending, spending, spending, but not getting it back.” Eventually, it did pay off for me.
We’re not used to the discernment piece and we don’t know how to make those decisions so…
How do you decide where and when to invest in your personal and business development?
Ann: Absolutely. I think it’s really important to understand that not all debt is bad. Just take one step back. If you look at your entire wealth and money management piece – because I’m about the backend. I’m the backend girl, so to speak. Once the money’s coming in, what do you do with it? How do you make sure it actually changes your life? That it actually creates wealth? That it actually gives you this freedom? Actually grows for you as opposed to just whizzing straight out the back door again.
You’ve got your income, your expenses, your liabilities – which are debts – and there’s assets. That’s what’s quite great. There’s just four things in these four quadrants that you need to focus on. We’re just now talking about the spot on debt side. But in each of these quadrants, you’ve got different quality of income. You’ve got different quality of expenses. You’ve got different quality of debt and different quality of assets. Then we start learning the discernment and how to feel the difference between them.
Looking at debt and liabilities, you’ve got three.
1) You’ve got the contraction debt. Consumer debt falls into that category because literally you’ve consumed something. The money is gone and you’ve consumed your future life force for something that’s already been dissolved. That’s quite an easy one to understand, that it’s in the contraction debt side because it contracts. There’s nothing that can grow from it.
2) Then there’s neutral debt. Neutral debt is where you’ve got a liability – a loan – but you’ve got something on the other side – usually in the asset column – that maintains its value. If you were to sell – a lot of people think cars or wardrobe. Sorry, but darlings, our shoes don’t fit into that category.
Typically, this would be a home – the home that you live in. Not an investment property, because that’s different. This is just a neutral because they basically write each other off.
It’s important to understand the refinement around that.
3) Then you have expansion debt. This is where you consciously will take on a loan and borrow money, where you consciously know how you can use that to get more, to make it grow.
What you spoke about – and this is where a lot of the investing in ourselves fits into it. This also works in leverage. We can borrow to grow a business. We borrow money for an investment property. We can borrow money to invest in stocks and shares. This is just called leverage, which is about accelerating our growth.
Now, on the specific side of investing in ourselves, there’s the fine edge to this. I think it comes back into checking into ourselves.
Our intention has a significant impact on the result, whether it ends up contracting on us or it ends up expanding.
When we end up entering into debt from a place of feeling we’re not good enough, we’re not worthy, we’re trying to fill something in us, there’s a very strong correlation and probability that that debt is going to start weighing down on you and it’s going to start getting heavy baggage and you’re not going to get the expansion from it.
Whereas, if we come from something, knowing that we’re really fully complete, that we’re entering into this as an expression of our worthiness, as an expression of our fullness and our enoughness, to add to something, often that will cause growth.
Now, just the final point of this.
Some of the discernment piece is really that checking in. Am I coming from FOMO? Is it coming from, “Just one more training and then I’ll be ready. Just one more thing, then I’ll be good enough to be visible and get out there.”
I’ve got huge compassion on this thing. Actually, where’s my enough rock? I have a little rock that reminds me that I’m enough.
I think it’s so important to, firstly, understand that I truly believe that none of us will ever get to a point where we feel cooked. Done. Enough.
With this debt piece, there’s a massive amount of compassion and forgiveness needed.
Whether it’s the consumer debt in my 20s – I managed to do it – and this later personal development. When I discovered personal development and I decided to shift from my engineering and I created my financial freedom… I’m very privileged and fortunate that I’ve got this back end of my money stuff sorted and that I didn’t have to go into debt. But I spent an inordinate about of money that I spent years building up. Like, boom, back out it went. I had to be like, “Shit, Ann. You’ve got to relearn a lot of the things that you’ve put in place.” I was so hungry and excited and enthusiastic. Part of this urgency of wanting the self-expression and this new side and discovery just made me very susceptible.
Self-forgiveness. Debt is so important. As you’re going to start claiming back this, just go, “What is done, is done.” The baggage, so much of that heaviness is about still second-guessing, feeling that we need to judge ourselves. It’s not going to change it.
Denise: No, it’s not. I think everyone who has a business has at least one thing, one course, one program, one mastermind, one mentor – whatever they invested in – that didn’t work out. Sometimes the value in what you paid is worth making the mistake. It’s like a priceless lesson.
But I see sometimes entrepreneurs do get confused about what they should invest in. I’ve heard someone say, “I think I’m going to get a personal loan of $10,000 to create a website.” You go, “You don’t need that. You don’t.” But to have a coach who is going to keep them accountable week to week for 10 grand, you could go, “That actually would,” – if it’s someone who is focused on getting you to do income producing activities and focusing on the money – then that would be a useful investment.
I’m not saying people should do that.
Really get discerning about creating a space to go, “Is this truly expansion?” This thing that I’m investing in, am I going to ensure that I take responsibility for that expansion and that growth?
Denise: Oh, yes. Just putting money into a coach does not mean you’re going to make money back. It has to be you –
Ann: Or into a program that you’re never going to then open.
Denise: No. Exactly. We’ve all been there.
Ann: I think this comes to the same. I think really getting out of debt and even going into the Money 3.0, there’s this extraordinary privilege that I think we have – that anybody is able to watch this, that has access to the internet, who is able to develop a business, who is able to invest in themselves, who has access to money in this kind of way – we have an amazing opportunity and responsibility as to what is going on in the world right now.
With this, this discernment piece, it’s really about also saying, “Is this going to expand me? Am I going to take full responsibility, truly acknowledging and valuing what that money’s potential is?”
When we understand money is potentiality, it’s an energy, it’s a seed – whether it’s loaned, whether it’s earned, it’s still a seed. We have an extraordinary responsibility because what we can do with it, we are creators. We have a privilege to be able to spend that money.
Denise: Oh, yes. Also, the privilege of earning it. I think most of us listening, we’re playing too small. We know that there’s more clients out there that we can serve. We know that there are opportunities that we’re not taking advantage of. We are leaving money on the table collectively as a gender.
Or course, there is systemic stuff. But in entrepreneurship, we don’t have a glass ceiling, really. Especially when we’ve created our own economies selling to other women and creating a little economy around each of us. There are no excuses anymore.
This is a perfect time for you to explain a little bit about this Money 3.0. I refer to it as New New Money. This is the new economy that we, as women, have created largely amongst ourselves. It’s real money. It’s money that is spreading throughout our community. Each woman who creates success hires other women, donates other money. We create these beautiful economies.
When you said Money 3.0, I was like, “Yes!” Can you please explain what you mean by that?
Ann: I think we are moving into a Money 3.0. But it’s needing us to lead this wave in a Money 3.0.
For me, Money 1.0 was survival. It was about food, shelter, roof over head and just getting by. It was a large part of the early 19th through 20th century, post-wars.
Money 2.0 was consumption. It was about having. It was about externalization, of believing that was wealthy. We can see where that’s got us. It was very much driven by fear and greed, fear and greed; fear of not being good enough, fear of not fitting in, fear of falling behind, fear of being inadequate and the greed of being hooked into what I call a “More Monster.”
I think we all have a bit of a More Monster in us who is just confused. A little confused because we are wired to believe that more of something must mean more. If we can have three baths, then that must be three times how nice it feels to lay in a lovely soaking bath, even though you can’t use all three at the same time.
We’ve seen what that’s done to our environment, to our societies, to our communities. This have and have not. This, literally, voracious consumption. And it’s created huge debt challenges, this consuming what isn’t even there.
This Money 3.0 we’re moving to is a wealth that comes from within – and I think this is what is so exciting – we have a privilege and a responsibility to help drive and go into it. Whereas, we’re starting to understand that money is a fuel. It’s something to lift up our wings and help us fly wider, to experience ourselves, to learn who we are, to experience life. That may mean having the yacht or the island, but if it’s truly coming from a deep-centered place of knowing that that is our truth as opposed to an externalization of trying to be worthy.
I think, for me, Money 3.0 is now starting to be a wealth that comes from within, where we sit in a place of knowing that we already are worthy. We already are wealthy. We already are enough. There’s nothing we can do or have or be or create to make us so.
Now we can approach money as a playdough, as an energy, as a mechanism of expression and of healing and conscious good that becomes yes, yes, yes. This discernment of when we choose where to direct our energy, our focus, our time and our money becomes how I have the privilege of being a leader to this extraordinary force. I’m like a bloody Jedi with this laser. Now, where am I going to direct it?
I think it’s important that we don’t get too heavy about it because I think it’s really about joyful place. It’s going, “I can direct this in a place that’s good for me, good for my community, good for the environment, good for my clients and by doing this, I can bring more in.
Now, there’s this tribe of these people that are coming from this place of fullness. I truly believe there is still time for us to transform this world.
Denise: You’re speaking my language, honey.
I had a couple of questions around the debt stuff, but I think we’ve gone to a different level. This is the place where a lot of women are scared to tread right now, this idea of being a leader. I’m even sure that you saying that being a leader is bringing up stuff for people because that’s scary for so many women.
Ann: I just want to jump in here because there’s just a little bit on that leadership. I think we can start in little steps. It’s always what’s our next little step.
Denise: What can most women do, then?
Ann: Something that I think can be quite overwhelming out there, and I know it’s hard for me. My vision of what I want to do can feel so big that, in a way, sometimes that bigness is a convenient excuse for me to hide.
Whereas, when I bring it down, I then go, “Okay, now what’s your excuse chick-a-boo?” With my money, when I can go, “I have a choice to be a leader with it.”
I would love everyone to go away and think of your wealthy life and that what you are creating in the world is created at the back door, not the front door.
Denise: What do you mean by that?
Ann: While we bring money in, what we choose to transform it into happens at the place of where we choose to exchange it. Our expenses, where it flows out of our life.
Often, we’re so busy trying to make an impact in the world and bring more income in, we forget to actually have a consciousness around what you’re choosing to exchange it for. A great part to start with your money leadership is just to spend a little bit of time at the back door, at the outflow and go, “You know, these expenses, are they really serving me? Do they really juice me? Did I choose them consciously or unconsciously? Are they just flowing out because I forgot about them?”
We can do this in our business as well as in our personal life.
When we truly start checking in on that point with discernment and realizing that every bit of money we exchange is having an impact down the line in the world, that’s where the impact happens.
You then go, “Wow. My little choice of going I’m going to take my own plate to get pizzas rather than the single packaging this time,” or whatever it is, whatever it is that really floats your boat. Knowing that does make a difference, that’s the addition.
On that decision, to go, “Maybe I can get this another way. Let me really blitz that debt. What can I liberate so I can free myself up?”
This is about choosing ourselves first. This is the paradox of leadership. It’s actually about choosing ourselves.
When we truly go deep and go, “Our journey on 3.0 is to get to know who we really are.”
When we realize that actually our truest self is extraordinarily discerning and when we truly go there, we realize we need a shitload less than we ever thought.
Denise: Yes. Exactly. When I hear people say they want to live this million dollar lifestyle, you’ve got to start where you’re at because it doesn’t cost a million dollars for you to be free. It really doesn’t.
Ann: Not to have an amazing lifestyle.
Denise: It really doesn’t. It doesn’t cost a million dollars for you to have your husband quit his job and work together in the business. It doesn’t cost a million dollars to get out of debt. It doesn’t cost a million dollars to be a philanthropist. You can start that right now.
I love your message of Money 3.0. It’s just so what the world needs right now. It’s what women need right now. This whole debt piece is just a liberator. I’ve got so many questions around the debt, but we are running out of time. I know we could talk about it forever.
I know that you have a free training series. Guys, I’ve got a special link. It’s at DeniseDT.com/wealth. Tell us about what people are going to learn in this free training series.
Ann: We’ve got an awesome workshop. It’s called the Freedom Workshop. We’re really shifting the focus to these four quadrants, to these areas of discernment.
We’ll go into the very first strains about understanding what assets are and these juicy things called assets, which are actually the only thing that can actually buy you your freedom. They earn money for you. They create this liberation of breaking out of the exchanging time for money piece.
What assets are, why you need them and how you can actually start getting them. I love the point that you already made for small amounts. Actually, there’s a lot of assets that you can be creating and bringing into your life for no money, breaking this mindset that all has to cost a lot.
Then we go into the debt piece, looking at these different sides; how to observe and liberate and lighten the load. So much of the debt piece and the liberation piece is lightening our load, lightening the burden that we believe we need to carry financially to get our monies flow further.
We also look at what I call Money Flows, which is how money flows through our lives. In my own journey – and I’ve worked with thousands of people – I’ve seen that there are four classic money flow patterns. No matter how much we earn, if we don’t adjust how money moves through our lives between these different quadrants, we’ll never actually create that freedom. This is why people who win the lottery, inheritance, divorce settlement or life insurance payout often end up in a worse position. They haven’t changed how the money’s flowing through their life. We really address that and how to fix that.
Then put together the whole blue print of financial freedom. When I started my journey, I had no idea what the different components were, where insurances, wills and getting out of debt – should you be focusing on getting out of debt before you build assets? How do you squeeze the juice? Managing your money day to day so it doesn’t sort of drive you mad.
How do you put this piece together so all of the money liberation, the money management stuff becomes this extraordinary supporting framework and foundation rather than this big boulder we’ve got to drag around with us. That is what the Freedom Workshop is all about. I can’t wait for everyone to jump in and join me in it.
Denise: I’m going to be jumping in as well because, if you’re listening, I’m amazing at manifesting money. I work on the mindset piece. But in terms of managing it, I still have to really work quite hard at that because it’s not my zone of genius. I can already tell by listening to that description that I probably have some leaks in those flows and I have some things that I need to cross off my list.
Luckily, we do have wills and some of that stuff, but my mind always wants to try and avoid that. I think sometimes in this personal development industry, we think it’s all about the mindset piece, but there’s some practical shiz that we need to do as well.
Ann: We’ve got two feet for a reason. We need one foot on either side and that’s when you’re balanced. I think that’s when we can settle down and really – I’m actually wiggling on my seat because I’m feeling, really, that base chakra part. I think that’s when we really have that support which allows the other juiciness to flow, the playfulness and the creation to come. But when we’re only on that one foot or the other – equally, if we’re just trying to manage the money and do that and we don’t really open up and deal with that, again, we’re out of balance. I love this.
Denise: It’s so true. You know, guys, I say this all the time: you can’t just light an abundance candle and just pray for more money.
Ann: And have a vision board.
Denise: Yes, exactly. When you get the money, you have to actually – my first year, when I started making money in my business, I spent it all because I was thinking, “Wow. This is amazing. I’m making all this money. There’s always more money where that came from.” But you still have to learn to be a good steward of that money so that you can multiply it and grow it even more.
Ann: I know we’ve got to wrap up, but I love the way how you teach the money in The Sacred Money Archetypes. What I’ll also be teaching in the workshop is how to actually protect our money from ourselves. I laugh about that because I’m a bit of a maverick and I really had to learn that you can automate and put systems in place so that it’s not about having to force yourself to do these things. It’s about how to put a framework that aligns to who you are. For me, I always say that I’ve got things in place that protect my money from me.
Denise: That is such a good way to do it. Such a good point. I was even thinking that with Mark and I, the reason that we have a financial investor is because we are both mavericks as our second archetype and we do not have the patience to do the numbers sometimes on some of our own investments.
In the past, we have bought investment properties that were the worst investments ever because we just didn’t have the patience to sit down and do the numbers. We need somebody else to balance that out. We’re not going to get better at it, to be honest.
Ann: And with forgiveness.
Denise: Yes, exactly. That training series sounds absolutely juicy. I will do another video below this one once I’ve gone through that, guys. I’m going to go and jump into that. You can get that at DeniseDT.com/wealth.
Ann Wilson from The Wealth Chef. Thank you so much for joining. I loved our conversation. I feel like this Money 3.0 is the future for women and money and I thank you so much for you time today.
Ann: Pleasure. I can’t wait to see you all inside.
Did you miss last weeks post? Check it out here: Business Breakups: How To Part Ways With Your Coach Or Supplier